S2:E3 Marylyn and Her Neighbor

Marylyn Tesconi speaks about sexual trauma she experienced as a child. The descriptions of sexual abuse occur from 6:38 - 7:27. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

You guys have entered my room with handguns and shotguns.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I'm trying to save my dying son.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

This would not be my life forever. There was a good chance I was not going to survive at all. And that same evening I shot him.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I said to her, I think I can forgive you. I'm Zio Bookbinder, and this is Imagine Justice, where we tell true stories about what happens after harm is done. These stories often include gun violence, death, child abuse, and sexual assault. Please take care in listening. These stories are told by the people who lived them.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Hi, my name is Marilyn, and I'm going to be talking today, telling a story about something that happened to me a really, really long time ago. And I need to tell that story, I'll need to go way back to my own beginnings, which I will do briefly. My grandparents were immigrants from Italy, both my maternal and paternal grandparents. But for most of my life, my young life, we lived either close by or with my maternal grandparents. My grandfather was a head of the family. He was not unkind, but he was detached and not really approachable. My grandmother was my champion. She taught me how to cook, how to sew, how to plant and raise the garden. And I really cherished her. My dad was a garbage man. He worked, but he also had long periods where he was not working because he had developed a heart condition, which prevented him from working full-time. And then my mom did not work. She and my dad were separated actually, more than they were together. My mom didn't really make any effort to build a closeness with me. We were not friends. She seemed happiest when I was not underfoot and out of the way. So for the first four years of my life, I thought our family was just like every other family. I went to church with my grandmother on most Sundays. We celebrated holidays together and family events together. And also we were just like any other family, or so I thought. We had a nice house. We had a great big Buick, and we had plenty of delicious Italian treats to eat, thanks to my grandmother. But there were some things about our family that were different than other families. And I think these are the things that contributed to eventually what happened. So I guess the primary thing is that my parents in particular drank alcohol. They drank it frequently and they drank a lot. And then this consumption of alcohol led to a lot of arguments and violent fights in the home involving my parents and my grandparents. Now I'm four years old. I have nothing really to compare this to. So I just think I think this is family life. This is what families do. And when the arguments began, I just kept out of the way and made myself kind of invisible and didn't get involved. But that didn't mean that there were no consequences for me or that I didn't get dragged into it in some way. And it was that aspect that really contributed to what eventually happened and paved the way for Mr. Pete. I was four years old when Mr. Pete came into my life. And in a few short years after him coming into my life, I went from the kid that nobody was focused on, nobody was concerned with, to the kid that everybody was focused on, and everybody was concerned with. So Mr. Pete was our next door neighbor and family friend. He lived in the house that was built by my grandfather and also was sold to him by my grandfather. I remember Mr. Pete very well. He was 72 years old. And grandchildren of his own as well. I can see him clearly even today. He had a greasy gray comb over. His glasses were held together at the bridge of his stones with adhesive tape. And he had false teeth that he manipulated around in his mouth to make funny faces. I remember that he smelled distinctly like old spice cologne. At first, Mr. Pete would just watch me as I played out in front of the house. And sometimes he would wave and I would wave back. I was out there on my own. My parents or grandparents were not with me. And I think this also had to do with the drinking and the fact that the alcohol and the arguing made my family very dismissive of me. And they didn't protect me. They did not take care of me, and I was neglected. But Mr. Pete came and he waved, and that was okay. And then, you know, I waved back and knew who he was. Then one day he approached me and gave me a piece of candy. And I took the candy. And it seemed like after that, he was out there every time I was out there, he was out there. I thought he was funny and I thought he was nice. I trusted him. But then he started tickling me. After the tickling came, the leading me into the alcove under his stairs. Then he would play with the zipper on my sailor suit. And eventually he invited me inside of his house for ice cream and cartoons. Now, you know, I'm a little kid. I'm thinking I must have asked permission of someone to go into his home, but I actually do not remember that. I just remember that once we got inside of his house, the tickling quickly became very sexualized. And I do remember me just surrendering and leaving my body as he did things to me. This went on from the time I was four years old until the time I was seven years old. There was no particular time frame around it. It just happened when it happened. He was never violent or mean. He never threatened me or my family. But still, I knew there was something wrong with what was happening with me and Mr. Pete. But I didn't know what it was. I didn't know how to name it. And so I just was frozen. And I didn't do anything. It just seemed to go on and on and on. I didn't know how to stop it. So it continued. But then when I was seven, something else happened in the family. My uh dad and my grandfather both died that year within six months of one another. That was very traumatizing for me. I lost the two most important men in my life. So now I'm seven. I'm trying to manage the loss of my grandpa, the loss of my dad. Plus, I have this horrible secret about Mr. Pete's that's strapped to my back that I'm carrying around. And I was just, it became overwhelming. Even for at seven, I knew that I couldn't carry this anymore. I couldn't handle it anymore. And so one day while I was taking a bath, my mom came into the bathroom to get something, and and I just blurted out. Don't remember what I said, but somehow I communicated to her that something was going on with Mr. Pete with me. And amazingly, my mom believed me, like instantly believed me, did not doubt me. And she marched right next door and to confront him, Mr. Pete. Um he wasn't apparently home because I left the bathroom and I was listening at the door along with my grandma. He wasn't home, but my mom was screaming and yelling at Mrs. Pete. When she got done with that, she came back to our house and she called the police. So that began another leg of my journey as a victim. So the next day we went down to this place called the Hall of Justice. And I remember that, you know, we were in a kind of sticky, icky, smoky room with two male detectives, and I'm my mom was prodding me to tell my story. Well, I was embarrassed, ashamed, confused. I mean, all of that and more. But I did the best I could. I don't remember what I said, but whatever it was, it was enough because Mr. Pete was charged and he was arrested. After that, we had to go down to the Hall of Justice numerous times so that what you know we could prepare for the upcoming trial. And I remember I didn't really have language for what had happened to me. And these detectives were trying to give me the words that I might be able to say in court, which if I could even remember or pronounce them, it would have been a miracle. And as the trial date approached, the um preparation was escalating. And I was feeling really scared and really nervous. But on top of that, I also remember feeling that somehow this was becoming my fault. This, what happened to me, was becoming my fault. Now, why did I feel that way? I felt that way because of the questions they were asking me. And I do remember the questions were why did you go with him in the first place? Why didn't we just tell somebody, anybody, a family member, a teacher, a friend, a neighbor? He was a neighbor. Why didn't I just tell somebody? Why did I let it go on for so long? Why didn't I just say no? I did not have answers for these questions. I but they left me feeling this deep shame that somehow this was my fault. Eventually, finally, the day of the trial came, and this was a long time ago. So in those times, uh there was, I'm thinking that there weren't a whole lot of kids that came forward with this kind of information in the first place. So there was no real um protocol to protect the a child. So I had to testify in court on the witness stand. So I'm eight years old the day that I'm testifying, and I can remember more the details. I remember what I wore. I wore a green sweater, a white blouse, a plaid skirt, and my new red shoes. And I remember sitting in that wooden witness box and kicking it with the toe of my shoe as I was being questioned. I don't remember, I don't remember a lot about the questions or who said what about anything. Um I don't even remember what I said, but I do remember that Mr. Pete's attorney, well, being in the court and seeing him was traumatic. So Mr. Pete was there, his attorney was there, the judge was there, my mother was there, her friends were there, the district attorney was there, and then I was there. And even though all these gaggle of folks were there, I still felt alone. And so when Mr. Pete's attorney uh became aggressive with me and he threatened that God would never forgive me if I was lying. I knew that I wasn't lying. And even though I was scared out of my mind, I stuck to my story. And Mr. Pete was convicted, and he was sentenced. I don't know what his sentence was, I don't remember. But it must not have been very long because when it was over with, he moved right back in next door and he watched me as I rode my bike and my skates out in front of the house. And I felt terrorized. I had nightmares about that guy for a really long time. I mean, he was shameless in his return and watching me on the stairs and traumatizing me in yet another way for another two years. I'm not saying it's needed needed to necessarily have a longer sentence, but could he have had a more productive way of serving that time and accountability? I mean, I don't see any accountability in being released and coming back home. And it was a time in this world, and maybe it still is, where children are seen and not heard. The discounting of that small voice. Eventually, he did move away. I don't know, you know, like I said, what his sentence was, but it felt like to me that I was the one that got a life sentence. Even at my young age, I was still carrying all of this. I don't know whatever happened to him. After he moved, he was gone, but he was gone. But what he did and everything that ensued from those actions did not go away. The sexual harm that I experienced was traumatizing, but it was nothing compared to the aftermath of the trial and the aftermath of the trial. That was even more traumatizing for me because I didn't get any counseling, I didn't get any comfort, I didn't get any support. And so I felt I felt different than everybody else. I felt like there was this giant curtain of shame that separated me from the rest of the world. And I internalized these messages, the messages of you are unlovable, you're unworthy, you're dirty, you're damaged, and you're broken. Those were the messages. Unlovable, unworthy, dirty, damaged, and broken. Even though no one ever said those things to me, I just I felt it. And so as I grew older and became an adolescent and then a younger woman, a young woman, it was almost became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I became those things. In my adolescence, I was a very promiscuous young woman. I did not understand intimacy at all. I thought sex was intimacy. I used sex as a bartering chip. I used it in all kinds of ways that were unhealthy and extremely, in some cases, very detrimental to me. I repeatedly put myself in the path of men who hurt me, men who beat me, and even men who raped me. I was trapped in the cycle I didn't know how to get out. And I even had a child with one of these violent partners. But still, I remained in relationship until I finally fled that relationship in fear of my life and the life of my daughter. This is pretty much how I went through the world for a whole lot of years. Now, did my I did have a career, I took care of my child, I had her in a private school. I did a lot of these things that we are meant to do, or and I took those obligations seriously, my job, my child. But there was this other part of me that was just completely off the hook. And it remained that way for many, many years until there was another traumatic event. When my child, who is now growing up at 17, she attempted suicide. And she was not successful. Um, however, there was also um that suicide attempt led me to know and understand that she had an addiction to methamphetamine, which I knew nothing about. And when this happened, I just looked and I thought, oh my God, am I becoming as negligent as my own mother? How did I not see this? Was I doomed to repeat this cycle of harm and pass it on to yet another generation? So the answer to that question is no. I committed to trying to get my daughter the best help available. And that included me having to participate and get help for her with the addiction and also her mental health issues. And so we started into treatment. Part of that treatment was for me to attend an Al-Anon meeting. I never heard of Al-Anon. I'm not a joiner. You can't really get me to join anything. But this was different because it the scale was life of my child, don't go to Al-Anon. So was I gonna be stubborn about it? And I so I just surrendered. I said, whatever it is, I don't care. I'm gonna do it because I want my daughter to live. I want I wanted to save her and rescue her. And that's what I thought I was gonna do when I went to Al-Anon. But that program, which is modeled after 12 steps in AA, but is only for the family and friends of people with addiction. Um that program focuses on me, not on the person with the addiction, but on the family dynamic of addiction and what did I contribute to it. And so I started taking a really deep dive into my own life and the things that I've been recounting here and what happened to me, and how did that translate into anything that happened now with this addiction and also my relationships with men? I started looking at all of that in doing my step work with my sponsor in that program. And I decided that I was going to go into therapy and put myself into therapy specifically to address the sexual harm because I'm now starting to see the connecting thread here. Okay, unlovable, unworthy, dirty, damaged, and broken. Here I am over here now. I gotta resolve this. I have to understand it. And so I I went into that therapy and I worked really, really hard. And I did come to understand many things. I understood that about trauma and the connecting thread of what happened then is manifesting now. I I guess maybe the the biggest takeaway from that therapy was there were several. One is that this type of crime happens more often than people might think. So I was not alone. That these unhealthy behavior patterns that I had developed with men were common among sexual harm survivors. And maybe most importantly, this was not my fault. This was not my fault. That was huge for me. If you had asked me, you know, 20 years ago, well, what about what about that sexual harm that happened to you? Do you think it has any bearing on anything in your life? 20 years ago, I wouldn't have said no. It does not. It happened a long time ago. There was a trialing with jail. It's over, it's done, we're done. And that I would have said that, and it would have been a lie, an unconscious lie, but a lie, nevertheless. Because I know now that unresolved trauma does not just disappear. Unresolved trauma lives inside of us like a virus, and it comes out the side of your neck in harmful and hurtful ways. Armed with this knowledge and all the information I've garnered and learned, I went back to school because I wanted to understand trauma even better than I was coming to understand it. I wanted to understand addiction, which is married to trauma. I wanted the threads of my life to be connected, finally. So I did, I went back to school. I got a drug counseling certification. I finished my bachelor's, I got a master's degree. I did a lot of things, including starting a workshop for free in my home for women who had experienced similar trauma to my own. The forgiveness that I am most grateful for is forgiveness of myself for all of the harm and disarray that I caused and created because of what happened to me without knowledge or understanding. Forgiveness for my mother, who died when I was 17. So there was never any hope to reconcile any of this. She was gone. But I managed through my stepwork and L and on and therapy to reach a level of understanding that my mom was broken too, probably struggled with mental illness herself, and maybe even had a similar issue in her own life. I'll never know. But I had to write it all off to she did the best she could. She did what she knew to do. And I can't actively carry any hatred for her or for anyone for that matter, because that makes me less. Carrying that hatred is a burden to me and destroys my life. It doesn't destroy her or anyone else. It hurts me. And I had to let it go. And I did. And as far as Mr. Pete was concerned, um, I don't know that traditional forgiveness is what I would assign to my feelings about him. I have no real idea what motivates him or anyone to do the things that he did to me as a child. But it doesn't matter because I anymore for me and my own healing, because I've reclaimed my life. I've found a way to restore hope in my own life. And Mr. Pete has no more power over me. He's just part of the story. And it's my story. It's my story to tell. Part of my healing is actually telling this story in venue after venue in different places, doing it here, doing it in the other places inside of a prison. I mean, that's been a miraculous thing for me to go inside and talk about this story. It never occurred to me that I would ever do that. Even after I realized that everything is connected and whack, whack, it never occurred to me that I would have that opportunity or that I would want it. But I did find the first time I was invited, it was, I would like you to know this. It was a podcast that sent that got me started in the restorative and transformative justice community. And I thought my role in that community would be to be a facilitator since I now had all these credentials and Roman numerals and numbers after and letters after my name. That was what I had to offer. But then they asked me one question. Someone that I contacted to get involved, they said, Have you ever been the victim of a crime? And when I said yes, they asked me to go inside and tell my story. And that's how I wound up starting this journey with the story and telling it in various places. And what I found inside the prison, to my shock and surprise, was a mutuality of healing that occurred in that short hour or whatever the time was that I spent with these guys. And how surprised I was when I found out in these circles that more than half of the men in there, in a circle of 33 men, at least half of them had been victims of early childhood sexual harm. This is prevalent. It's still happening. And I guess I'm on a little bit of a mission to shine a light. Yeah, court systems are different, some of the laws are different, but what's not different from all these many, many years ago is trauma. Trauma is not different, it still lives inside of us unresolved. And it's my hope that I can talk about it, shine a light on it. And in doing that, it's healing for me, but also maybe radiating out into the world beyond me. And not as an excuse for any behaviors, but understanding and clarity are vital to change. So that's my story.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You're welcome. I feel blessed to receive it.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Thank you. Yeah. Um, I feel blessed to be able to tell it. And it makes no matter to me if if you use this as a podcast or not. But the fact that you heard it is a healing step.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I was wondering if you could share more in detail about what it was like to share this story in the prison. And did you have interesting conversations with some of these survivors of childhood sex abuse that you told the story to? Like what were what were those interactions like?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

The first time I ever told the story, I had no idea what I knew what I wanted to say. I mean, I had looked at this issue a lot. That's how I have recalled these details, but I had no clue exactly what I was gonna say, or what did I want out of this, or whatever. And I was scared. And then I walked in, and here's 33 guys that I've never seen in my life, and I'm gonna talk about sex, right? Or the sexual harm. And so that day, and I do want to tell this story that out that day I told my story similar to what I've told to you. And now there was a person who told a different story before me. There were two of us that day, and her family, her dad had been murdered, and that was the story that she told. So my story is not like that story, and uh, and that made me even more nervous. So when I was finished talking and telling my story to this circle of 33 guys, you could hear a pin drop. There's no sound. Now, when my partner had spoken, the guys were really interactive and asking her questions, and and so my first thought was my first thought was I did it, I'm done. And my second thought was I did not reach them. And I was for a minute, I was sad. And then from that far side of that circle, this young guy got up and he said, Miss Marilyn, can I approach you? I'm like, in my head, I'm thinking, okay, I don't know what what now what? What is that about? I'm just and I I said, okay, because I didn't know what else to say. And so he walked towards me and I asked him, Do you want me to get up? And he said, No, I'm gonna come down to you. He got to me. The guy got on his knees. On his knees, he took both of my hands, he looked into my face, and he said, Miss Marilyn, I want to apologize to you for every man who has ever hurt you. He was crying when he said it, and pretty soon I'm crying, then everybody in the room just about is tearful and crying. And in that moment, I knew I was in exactly the right place, doing exactly the right thing. He went back to his seat, and uh I just sat back in my chair and I knew that I would be back again somewhere to tell the story that it was the right thing to do. And later in other venues, people I found out, maybe I would ask, is anyone here relate to the story or where are you and my story? And people began raising their hands that they had been also harmed. When I tell the story inside prison, I always bring a picture. It's a picture of me at the age of three. I keep the picture on my bedside table because I want her to be the first thing I see every night before I go to bed, and the or the last thing I see, and the first thing I see when I get up in the morning is this little three-year-old kid holding her doll, who she was before this thing happened. And it's very powerful to bring in this photograph and have the men like this. Is what we're talking about. I'm talking about this innocent little person who was completely steamrollered in this process and discounted and made to feel like the criminal. That's gotta stop. And I don't know that it is stopped. I think there's a stigma, there's a stigma of being a person who commits a crime of sexual harm, particularly against a child, but there's also a stigma of being the person who got who the crime was committed against. Yeah. As a child, or even as a grown person. Is it my fault? Was my that's was it the dress I wore? Was it this? Was it that? Even in an instance where I was actually raped, I made that my fault. My fault that I was duped into believing that this person might be interested in me. I had him put on some kind of a pedestal. And then when it happened, I mean, never reported it. It was like because it was all my fault. I made it my fault. I shouldn't have gone there, I shouldn't have worn that, I shouldn't have done all this stuff. The all those stigmas need to be blasted away because stigma are no stigma, the shit happened. I mean, it still happened, and we need to deal with it so we can all be healthier. Most recently, I've been invited to do some work with some men at Soledad Prison who have formed their own support group because for sexual harm, they have experienced sexual harm and they harmed someone sexually. And because they're ostracized in the hierarchy of the system, the carceral system, they had to form their own group. And I applaud them for that because their healing and hopefully their reintegration to the world beyond the incarcerated one, I think is contingent on growth, understanding, and responsibility. All of those things.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

I know someone who started a group like that in prison too. He's in one of the episodes, actually. It was episode one. I don't, but he's in, I think he's in Chow Chilla, not Saledad. I was able to talk to one of the people that he armed and to him, and they both talked about a healing conversation, a victim offender dialogue that they had together.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

You know, that the a victim offender dialogue is not was never going to happen for me because the patient was gone. But there's been a level of healing in me that is through the surrogacy of speaking. And and I've also agreed to be in surrogate dialogue with with men who they're requesting a surrogate dialogue, not necessarily with me, but they would like to do that. And and I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do whatever I can to contribute to the healing because it never stops. I don't care if it was a hundred years ago or 50 years ago or whatever, how many years ago, whatever happened happened.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

If you do a one of those surrogate dialogues, does that mean you'll potentially be talking to someone who has been sexually violent towards a child?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I'm not sure. I think it might be either or both things. And for me, it doesn't it doesn't matter. I will show up and I'll be a listener or I will answer a question if quit put to me, whatever it might be. Just about two weeks ago, here in San Francisco, where I live, the federal court system is now trying to start a restorative justice program here in San Francisco. And somehow through the rape vine of restorative justice, my name got thrown into the hat. And so I I'm starting with them now to try to build this thing from the ground up. And um, the opportunities are exciting and healing, not just for me, but for I think everyone involved. So I just want to keep going from one thing to the next thing to the next.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

With your experience as a child going through the court system, though things have changed some for kids who've experienced abuse. But with your experience and all of your knowledge and then your recent experience of sharing your story in prison and doing transformative and restorative justice work, how do you imagine justice?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I imagine justice for everybody. I don't imagine it just for me, or just for people who are labeled as victims. I in fact, I really hate that word victim. I'm kind of done with the word survivor, even. And I've come to think of myself as a warrior. My weapons are courage, compassion, and love. That's kind of how I see myself now. I think we have to move away as a society, moving away from the idea of punishment or just that that's the only thing available. If you did this bad thing, you're punished, and you'll be punished for endless years. Who's served by that? Who is well served by that? Now, I I understand there are people who have committed horrible crimes, need to be separated out from some other folks, and but even those guys should have available to them opportunity to heal and to be join these groups. So my vision of justice is not it's not singular, it's very pluralistic. You know, everybody gets a seat at the table of justice in some way. And um, you know, in doing my apology letter writing, not mine, but I was part of that team thing in Chow Chilla, the one thing that was glaring for me in doing that was the degree of self-loathing that these guys had for themselves. They couldn't even generate an authentic apology because they hated themselves for what they had done. And I guess for me, one look of justice would be to no longer despise yourself, to not embrace the idea that you're unlovable, unworthy, dirty, damaged, and broken, or to understand that you have that is part of you, but there's other parts. And and those are important parts, and particularly important if we hope to ever unincarcerate folks and to come back and out and join the world. So that was uh that was surprising to me how that that self-loathing was such a stumbling block for these guys. But then I started thinking it was my stumbling block too, in a different way. I didn't hurt anybody, I didn't commit a crime, but I hurt myself over and over and over again. So part of justice has to be forgiveness, and that has to start with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Thank you. You're welcome. I know what you mean when you were we're saying plurality. I think I mean the way that I understood it was I guess the way that I look at transformative justice or restorative justice, there's no prescribed solution. The way that there's just a sentence that you get for if you technically did these things while carrying these items, then you get this sentence instead of looking at the situation at hand and looking at who was harmed and what caused the person who caused the harm, you know, what were the circumstances that existed that allowed the harm to be done in the first place. Every situation is so unique and calls for unique solutions. I hope that we can move into a flexibility and an open-mindedness in our response to harm in our seeking of justice.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

I I have faith that we that it is possible. I don't know about the state. Prison system now in this federal justice thing that I started working on. We're it's totally different. We're not going inside prison. These guys have are not incarcerated. They haven't been sentenced yet. They've been through something called alternative court systems. And part of their sentence, if they may serve no time, but they'll have to do work in this transformative justice arena, and it'll be prescribed and it'll have to be done and brought forward. And so it's not, they still have to be accountable. They're still asked to be accountable, but it's not in the same way. And I love the idea of an alternative court system or justice system because look around you. I mean, it doesn't work. The system we have is broken. It's fucking obvious to a lot of folks who just look at it, not to mention the folks that are impacted and incarcerated. Because when someone commits a crime, they don't just commit it against the person or persons that are directly harmed. And I'm sure you know this. I mean, it's it ripples, there's ripples. And yeah, it they're affected, the person or persons you harmed directly are affected, but then the families are affected. The community is affected. And it's the same with those are all the same reasons that we need to heal in a way that heals the individuals, the families, and the community. That's how I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

I think a lot of people forget that people can cause harm in prison too. It's not like we put them away in prison and then and nobody's causing harm anymore. There are millions of people in prison and they can be harming each other. And those people are worthy of protecting as well and keeping safe.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

That word worthy is really um the system we have now, it seems to divide us into worthy and unworthy. And and I was on the unworthy side for a long time, even though I was in a prison of my own making. That's how I've come to look at all of this, is there are so many ways that we isolate ourselves and um diminish our value, our value and our worth. You know, I never imagined I would be holding a trauma workshop in my living room of women who have experienced harm. I've never imagined any of this stuff that's happened in the last five to ten years. My only regret here is that I'm old now and I don't have enough time. Just like there's just not enough time for me. Um, I wish I had come to some of this some years before. And there's nothing I can do about that except stay focused and keep doing what I'm doing as long as for as long as I my heart is willing to do that. I will share one other small thing with you. Well, it wasn't small for me, but I invited my daughter to come to the graduation of the letter apology writing group. And my daughter's old now, she's 42, or she was 41, I guess, at the time. And uh and I got permission for her to come in that day with with us. And um, you know, she's a person who works in the world, she no longer has a drug issue that was resolved many, many years ago. She's married, has a kid. And uh so I invited her to come with me, and she did agree to come to the prison. And the minute we walked into the prison and got into our classroom after walking through the yard and all the places we have to go to get to our classroom, as soon as we got there and the men were in the circle, she never spoke to me that day again. She was completely engaged with these guys. She would had lunch with somebody. She, I mean, I wasn't really paying that much attention to her. All I know is she wasn't with me. She was completely engaged. And um, and then when we left and were driving home on a long three-hour drive, she it told me that she thanked me for inviting her and that I had changed her. I uh what she saw that day and what she heard that day changed her. Uh, she I guess had an idea that these were some monsters that she would be. Because she said, Mom, I was so shocked. The first thing I noticed, there's no guards in there. We were just in there with these guys. There's I said, Yeah, I never even thought about that, me personally. But to have that opportunity to bring her there to experience not just what I'm doing, but what is possible, what is being done, what is currently happening. I was really grateful for that opportunity, and so was she. So it's whenever we have a chance to change those hearts and minds, we should take it. When I first started going into prison, one of the there were two things that struck me. This is before I even told my story or anything, just walking into the prison, the barbed wire was the only shiny thing in that whole place as the sun would shine off of that barbed wire. And also then going and seeing these guys in these outfits, costumes of what they have to wear, and this prisoner on the legs of their pants. And I looked at them and I thought, how would I feel if I walked through the world with the word victim splashed across my chest? How would that? I think I would just feel like a victim constantly, everywhere, all the time. So I came home and I started making it. I'm a quilt maker. So I thought, I'm making a quilt about this. And I'd been working on it forever. I'm close to being done now, but it I have I made the little like guys with no faces. But instead of prisoner, I put hope and healing and other words. In the time that it's taken me to make this quilt, they've stopped assigning those pants to give them the prisoner word, which I was happy to hear.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Thank you, Marilyn, for sharing your story. Thank you for listening to Imagine Justice. I am your host, Zio Bookbinder. Music is by Katie Gehan and the Drive. Editing and everything else is by me. If you're enjoying the podcast, please consider subscribing on Patreon. You can find the link in the show notes. You can also support the show by sharing with friends and family and by leaving a rating and a review. Thanks so much, and see you next time on Imagine Justice.